Oct 5 organizing call transcript

Chat log from Oct 5 organizing call.

[Comment From jon]
[Comment From Jessica]
HarryWaisbren: Hi Jessica
[Comment From jon]
hi jessica!
Jessica: Hi everyone! Good to be working with you all. Hope you all are doing well.
jon: good to be working with you too Jessica! anything in particular you want to get out of this call?
Jessica: I'm curious to hear more ideas about generating interest in such a crowded news cycle and to hear about strategies others may have had some luck with in generating additional coverage
TwitterBrukPat: Brain teaser: When free people choose freely, through action or inaction, to give up freedoms, is it a paradox? #patriotact #privacy #p2
jon: aha, looks like the twitter integration is working :-)
jon: Jessica, do you think that discussion would be better before or after we discuss the Twitter/Facebook campaign?
HarryWaisbren: I see the issues as interelated Jon, as the success of our twitter/facebook campaign is largely about breaking through the crowded news cycle.
jon: agreed harry i'm just not sure of the order to discuss the two in. maybe they blur together
HarryWaisbren: Jon asks Jessica about response to her post.

Jessica: it was pretty good. I have my own little gorup of people who care about that issue. Built in audience. Pretty well received. Additional traffic on twitter, other more coordinated efforts. Plan on followup post.
HarryWaisbren: Jon, Jessica, Jim and I on the call so far.
Twittercscannella: RT @EFF: A #patriotact reform round-up from @normative and @GetFISARight: http://eff.org/r.48
HarryWaisbren: Patrick has just joined us as well. We are talking about goals of hte call while we wait.
HarryWaisbren: Jon: need update on legislative situation. Need to know what the ask is for Thursday.

Julian Sanchez has joined hte call

Jon: Kevin sent an email before the call, saying support hte Feingold amendments might not be the best ask. We want to come out of this iwht a clear understanding so we can make a crisp ask in whatever we are doing
HarryWaisbren: Jon: other goal for the call is we are launching something on twitter/facebook tomorrow. TBD on facebook. Need to come out of this where we can craft a short message we can send to facebook saying "do this at such and such a time" and try to spark something virally ont hose networks.

Jon: another thing we want to come out fo this in general is ideas of how to get coverage on this issue.
HarryWaisbren: Kevin Bankston from EFF has now joined us as well
HarryWaisbren: Jon giving inros

Jessica from care2

Julian from CATO/Economist/Reason and the American Prospect

Kevin from EFF
Twitterkickinghorse892: RT @EconUS As tough as cowards - The #Democrats prepare to quietly re-approve the #patriotact ... http://ow.ly/15T3I9
HarryWaisbren: Kevin: talking to Feingold and Durbin's people. Will be amendments from Feingold and others. May not track JUSTICE language, might be origianl Leahy bill, reinsert provisions into substitute bill.

Kevin: message of support Feingold or support JSUTICE Act is too narrow. Should be support message of jUSTICE act or other civil liberties reform. Broader call. For example, will see something on NSL letters coming up.
HarryWaisbren: Kevin: General support for civil liberties, less support for Feingold/JUSTICE
HarryWaisbren: Marcy has now joined us too
HarryWaisbren: Kevin: Right now thank you to Specter. Continuing to thank Feingold jsut as importnat, making tough decisions.

Kevin: right now, unlikely he will offer anything related to FISA amendments act, but we'd like him to do that, particularly bulk collection.
HarryWaisbren: Marcy: we are talking about actions that will be worthwhile in the near term.

Kevin: effecting this Thursday

Marcy: know Dems and repbulicans are in favor of making Patriot worse

Kevin: not correct

Marcy: in spite of votes last week about making it worse?

Kevin: if we assume that we are forgoign opportunity to pass other amendments. Teh vote on 215 was, according to people who voted on both sides, effected by classified ongoing collection relying on it. Not necessarily the csae with higher NSL standard.

Kevin: if we focus on shaming people who voted wrong on 215, use this as opportunity to fortify base in spite of that. To say that everybody but these 4 senators will vote wrong is demonstrably falses
HarryWaisbren: Marcy: fine. You disagree with me then. One thing that is relevant is Conyers, Nadler sent letter to HOlder to ask that info to become public

Kevin: is it online?

Marcy: it's on my site

Marcy: you and I disagree on where this is going, but what is underlying is they are doing data mining that is related. Seems tom e we need to get that story out there. I'm all in favor of shaming hte poeple doing this, aprticularly Leahy.

Marcy: things like throwing the librarians a bone. have opportunity to say that in 2006 NRA treated the same way as librarians, but where are htey now. Stuff they are going after is stuff tehy care about as well

Marcy: what we are trying to do on some of these issues, and the way they dealt with 215 was getting it through so quickly that no one noticed what was going on. Not sure we can win by Thursday, but ifw e can escalate fihgt and get library sasoicaiton and NRA thenw e have opportunity to hold some gorund in the house where it'd btw Conyers and Nadler
HarryWaisbren: Marcy: don't necessarily have someone pushing like Difi

Jon: no question we want to be thinking what we are doign this week both from perspective of trying to effect thursday vote nad for building for succession of battles
HarryWaisbren: Jon: to extent we can take advantge of energy to highlight these issues and gain traction it's worth doing
HarryWaisbren: Julian: they went into exception for libraries, but the fearsome lobbying power of big library is not incrdibly high. There is a clash, some kind of organzing constituency to give pressure that they are prepared to accomodate themelves for that. Just as librarians are making noise, but others aren't making sufficient noise
HarryWaisbren: Kevin: want to clarify. marcy, I don't think we are disagreeing. Agree that 215 is important, linked to your piece. Wary that all senate judiciary members who voted wrongly on 215 are irredeemable on other isseus

Marcy: no. DiFi in particular seems interested, and frankly with Leahy's help, seems interested inp assign this while looking like bad guys. To extent we can do that, especailly Leahy becasue he knows this is BS. Problem is Leahy's bill is they've done everythign they can do to detach FISA stuff from rest of bill.

Marcy: to me, story is you ahve these massive data mining proejcts you wont' tell americans about, and they are trying ot pass this in the middle of hte night again. DiFi and leahy should be ashamed

Marcy: one thing l liked that feingold did is he said it's a fishing expedition in 2005. If it wasn't then it is today, even if they have concrete things to go after
Twitterrmack: RT @EFF: A #patriotact reform round-up from @normative and @GetFISARight: http://eff.org/r.48
HarryWaisbren: Julian: if there is really this huge concern of interupting something already ongoing, to some extent there is a grandfather clause. Can keep using the law as it was previously.

Julian: if genuinely the thing they are being scared with is they are going to screw up ongoing investigation, I think we can probaly live with the standard needs to change but old investigations can go with old standard
HarryWaisbren: Julian: if that's what htey are worried about they can do narrow fix.
HarryWaisbren: Patrick: my impression was that if you look at that, as poeple are playing politicis one way to fly that story is the republicans were doing thigns the wrong way, dems are doing it the right way. This is being handled as a law enforcement issue, not a ham handed way republicans were

patrick: and, this counts on using things like the 215. You odn't want to mess with the doing it the right way thta the dems are doing. Can see how they get pinched into this. The dems really want to rpove that they can do these things and get it right. Take it they are feeling pressured on that is my impression.
HarryWaisbren: Marcy: I thinkt aht is a pretty good read too. Kind of want to say go ahead and do the investigaitons, obviously they prevente dsome crazy guy from bombing NY, but want to question the method of some kind of data mining or at least link analysis btw people with associations and others wiht ties to terroirsts. going backwards

Kevin: one area where grandfather won't work is this isn't about discreet investigations, it's about important colelction program they intend to continue doing indefinitely
HarryWaisbren: Marcy: and the method I'm sure they plan on doing indefinitely

Kevin: amybe it's worth talking about specifically what we are going to do

Jon: yeah, first, any more questions ont eh overall legislative situation?
HarryWaisbren: Jim: when I was looking at what it means to Get FISA right, one reason I backed off was that you can't get fisa right. I would really like to go down thsi with people with the right background, but I think that's the problem

Jim: Should be looking at short term, but long term what's effecting this is some people feel agaisnt the wall that given the current law and tech there is no way to do this right. Want to get a few poeple involved in doing this with me.
HarryWaisbren: Julian: I'm working on a proejct for CATO on what 21st century surveilance should look like. How to create effective oversight. That's for after this partiuclar fight.
HarryWaisbren: Jim to discuss this later with Julian
HarryWaisbren: Jon: specifically on twitter and FB activism. Goal is to kick something off that spreads virally. Difficult to predict whether these work or not. Ex of last week lots of people changing statuses on health care.

Jon: on twitter, style is falsh style where things can crest. If you amke it into top 10 hashtags then everyone sees, some percentage checks out, can grow viral very quickly.

Jon: total crapshoot whether we can make this happen. Idea was all week long priming the pump.
HarryWaisbren: Jon: can give instructons on FB. Still ahven't figured out the specific call to action. On twitter will be make a few tweets btw 5 adn 8 pm EST let's say, or mroe broadly tuesday evening, to get mass packed into that time. Voluemo n the hashtag to spark retweeting.

Julian: healthcare status was a great model, my read on why it was so effective is it was a pretty simple and detached from legsilatvie was arugabe moral. It was nobody should die becasue they can't afford medicine
HarryWaisbren: Julian: simple, moralized. Something that at its heart there should not be unlimited powers.

Jon: good point
HarryWaisbren: Jon: want to come out of this phone call, if we decide that's the route we want to go, the rough text, the instructions, and then try to get enough people ticking off the initial tweeting and reposting these instr;uctions on blogs that it then draws in their readers

Jon: also thinking about how we get at least a handful of intial blog posts with this that encourages people to make it similarly. Way I look at it, blogs add external energy to the chain reaction we are trying to start up

Jon: does that make sense at a hgih level what we are trying to do?

Jim: yeah, the phrasing is the key thing. If we can get something where people get it, then this all makes sense, but htat is key
HarryWaisbren: Jon: ok, lets' get to work on that
HarryWaisbren: Jon: i like closing with something like "stop spying on americans, fix the patriot act". People know the patriot act, if we have this other earlier emotional hook...
HarryWaisbren: Kevin: one of the big sites on a variety of atuhrotieis is whether these patriot powers should justify using criminal stuff, sneak and peaks, even though they were sold as counter terrorism tool. Also what hte bar should be if hte gov is trying to get records, do you ahve to be a foreign agent or linked to one or not.

Kevin: quesiton is whether the law shoudl treat innocent americans like terorirsts or not. Maybe message should be don't treat me liek a terroirst, fix the patriot act.

Jon: great idea!
HarryWaisbren: Kevin: by having all these powers without any refernce to whether you are linked to terroist or spies, then they treat all of us like we are terrorist spies.

Kevin: as marcy suggest, get stuck in record sweeps that are unrelated to anything

Kevin: clear that they are by almost def getting records of people not linked to terrorism
HarryWaisbren: Jon: how about "i'm not a terorist. stop spying on Americnas, fix the patirot act"
HarryWaisbren: Mark: I think ti's strong to use the word terroist, some might htink that's an overreaction. Some don't have a sense for how they are effected by this and these particular sections.

Mark: have to find a way to make it concrete. Role that into slogans.

Julian: one benefit of i'm not a terroist language is a lot of peopl eon Glenn Beck circuit are upset at DHS report on right wing extremism. Lot of them are still worried or could b ereminded of concern that under Obama people who associated with very conservative groups might be treated like crazy violent people
HarryWaisbren: Marcy: again, I think there are ways to elevate this if we think longer temr. Give house 2 weks to get to this. If youw ant to get info about books, libraries, or guns, have to go to asst attorney general. Can we start an interim about why does ALA get an exception this time by not NRA?

Marcy; as much about claling NRA out about this breach of civil liberties now. Same with book stores. After that, ask why are poeple spying on people who shop at home depot. Will make home depot really pissed off, but that's the kind of thing where you get to joe six pack who actually shops there

marcy: other hting to hit on is medical records. in the middle of health care fihgt that will make them uncomfortable
HarryWaisbren: Julian: before calling NRA can I have 24 hours to try to make a backcahnnel?

Marcy: yeah.
HarryWaisbren: Jon: going back to patrick's point about makign things more concrete. I'm not a terrorist, stop spying on Americans that might be too big a jump is what I hear patrick saying, unless you know hwo patriot act is working

Jon: way to make it more concrete involving NRA/home dpeot that could fit into a status message
HarryWaisbren: Julian: drugs, weapons charges, tax fraud, I think extortion might ahve been up there somehwere. Top 15 uses have nothing to do with terorism
HarryWaisbren: Julian: a lot of people I know have more relations with those guys, I woudn't wager on Americans for Tax Reform sticking their necks out on this, but I can see them being interested in it
HarryWaisbren: Patrick: guns and 2nd amendment and tax reform epople helps pull in those on right and center. Get away from notion taht civil liberites is flmaing liberal leftist issue
HarryWaisbren: Marcy: from center, someone who would be open from hearing from people is Coburn. advantage for him is he is on intelligence committee as well
HarryWaisbren: Jon: FB will be status changing campaign. Still haven't responded to Patrick's point about being concrete. So far, "im' not a terorist, stop spyngon ameriicans, fix the patriot act"

Jon: ask people to post that, something short about how they can help

Patrick: for FB, can be a little longer than 140. Is there some way to lead into it iwth Feingold's stats?
HarryWaisbren: Jon: I like that

Kevin: problem is the one amendment we are going ot get on sneak and peak will pass. Everythign we are fighitng aobut now are foreign intelligence authorities not general criminal authorities
HarryWaisbren: Marcy: one thing to remember is that's true of the senate, not the house

Kevin: good point. action this week is for senate.

Marcy: there are some things we can do this week, tohers to lay the gorundowrk for because we are behind the game on senate but might be able to catch up on the house side
HarryWaisbren: Jon: what are they doing wiht 20,000 National SEcurity letters?

Kevin: one biggest shot we are going to have is an amendmetn to hgegihten standards on NSLs
HarryWaisbren: Kevin: the show is going to be trying to get a NSL standard heightening passed

Jon: ok, liking it. 25,000 natioanl security letters last year. were you one of them?
HarryWaisbren: Kevin: 25,000 w/out requirement of connection to terorism. I don't want to muck up message but to extnet FB can have more details, theyd ont' erquire the records have to deal with terrorism

Julian: want to grab people. 25,000 last year, but that was actually a low point. If we do last 5 years I'm sure it would have to be close to 300,000 every 5 years
HarryWaisbren: Jon: two diff topics. 1. how much mroe info to add, will it destory punchiness? 2. better to go for last year or last 5 years

Kevin: if we can find bigger number let's go with that
HarryWaisbren: Jon: julian can you get that number?

Julian: it might be easier for me to do this afterwards

Kevin: if we have a link to something we can always put details in the link. Want to include FBI and inspector general reports. Ask hey guys why aren't you fixing htis yet

Julian: link is a good idea. You want poeple to click through anyways to take action. Beyond one lasting number or call to action, I say put hte details in the link, make them sit up and take notice and want to take action in the call
HarryWaisbren: Jon: ok, int erms of what to link to, can someone do a hsort blog post wiht key info and then a call to action

Mark: was it Kevin that metnioned IG report in 2nd circuit? My thinking would be that it woudl be good to link to the actual authority, to the actual evidence in one way or another.

Jon: I think you need that in the blog post, but you need to get htem to the blog post to see that and everything
HarryWaisbren: Julian: GFR is natural place to have call to action post. One thing we can think of is think of bullet pointed, this is how many NSL's there were over hte last 5 years, here's how many last year, here's how many were about americans

Julian: here's how many FISA warrants were issued, in thousdands. At the end, number of terroists prosectuions. Every year tehre are dozens. Here are the numbers, here are how the powers are bieng used, here's how many terorirst are being prosecuted. You figure it out
HarryWaisbren: Jessica: we were thinking of hte language for FB, I really like Marcy's idea of trying to find not a whole lot of examples but something like medical records that is concrete

Jessica: thinking of thsoe who read my blog on a regular basis, less sophisticated on some of these issues than others who will be participaitng. something taht will be a hook to that where i can link to GFR. need to get htem in though, is tendnacy to not have a grasp on how legislation will impact people who aren't wonky on civil liberties to start with
HarryWaisbren: Jon: good point, thoughts about that?

Jessica: i think we've covered a lot of htat ground in this converasiton, but Marcy's point to something like Medical records. soemthign taht one of my students from community college could get intersted

Marcy: I have a reader of mien who is a biologist doing an analysis after realizing his daughter with acne medicine could have been searched. Things undersearched if htey are lookign for anything with high lievel of peroxide for example
HarryWaisbren: Julian: commercials work in series. Have main call, "I'm not a terorist". but what we see happening over next couple days is more specific posts linking back to main call but going into more details on other issues

Julian: a "who is reading your medical records" or looking into your phone calls. Who has been searching your house. And then links from short punchy thing ot main call.
HarryWaisbren: Julain: bunch of work, don't know who can do it

Jon: great idea, even if we can't pull it off for thursday, will have template for moving ahead. Really important strategy, about amkign it concrete, as Jessica said, it has prevented us from moving out beyond civil liberties wonks
HarryWaisbren: Mark: my concner would be that something like links to toher blogs and others, what I was suggesting was that in initial posts would be linking to first hand docs. Cite numbers, say "according to..."
HarryWaisbren: Mark: I think we need to stick to what we can coem up with hard evidenc on for credibilyt sake.

Jon: can link back to DOJ website

Mark: that works
HarryWaisbren: Jon: so we need a blog post starting with the numbers with overviews on NSLs, and then people starting to work on issue specific posts as well.

Jon: can't remember, did someone say they can do the blog post on NSL that we will be linking to

Julian: I am goign to do a series on the CATO blog on the expiring blog. Was goign to do one on 215 and NSLs together. When those go up tomorrow can use those. I can't specifically, limits to what I can do directly. cAnt' say call your congressman.
HarryWaisbren: Jon: when that goes up we can exceprt and link off to you for details
HarryWaisbren: I'd be happy to do that

Jon: thanks
HarryWaisbren: Jessica: I'd be happy to do an issue post over at Care2

Jon: wonderufl. Whcih?

Jessica: I know Tracy also writes on Care2 about some of htese issues, would like to coordiante iwth her in a perfect world.

Jon: don't need to decide now
HarryWaisbren: Marcy: I'm going to keep hitting what I've been hitting. I will try to live blog whatever goes on on thursday. My reader is also working on that list of medicines that would come under the precursor search.

Julian: as that coems up, sneak and peak related to drugs and others coming back to drugs, also news articles like the woman who was bustd buying sudafed twice in a week. If people writing about things like that, you gotta have template with repeated statmeents "stop spying on Americans, fix the patriot act"

Jon: good point about basic call to action. Make it easy as possible for people to do those
HarryWaisbren: Julian: whenever we blog about things related have that call to action template. Get more to use that when htey are blogging about the wide spectrum .

Jon: would you have time to take first stab?

Jim: maybe I can work with you Patrick. Can you put us together Jon?
HarryWaisbren: Jon: ok, fairly concrete next steps. Don't think there is much need for call tomorrow. Waht I suggest instead is probably thinking about a call next week after Thursday to see how far did we get with all of this, waht kidn of basis does that have for going foward
HarryWaisbren: Jim: keep up momentum

Patrick: I've got two questions on taht part of it. I thought we were orignally talking about coorinated effort btw facebook, twitter, setting up chatroom on teh day of the hearing, maybe doing liveblogging.
HarryWaisbren: Jon: I had completely forgotten about htat

I suggest using twitter and such during Marcy's live blogging
HarryWaisbren: Jon: how about we reschedule Tuesday FB event for during hte hearing?

Me: I like that
HarryWaisbren: Jon: one thing i noticed on FB is people aren't inviting other people. Reason why I think ti makes sense to change event is so we keep accumulating people

Jm: my tendnacy is to continue with tomorrow

Jon: do we still want to have live chat/twitter/FB event tomorrow live whenever we choose. But I'm just thinkign of reusing the FB event. Will notify about tomororw, were going to send out mailing, that's when we invite them to the chat
HarryWaisbren: Patrick: we had talked about people with expertise on the issue doing a Q and A in the chat room. Not sure aout event on Tuesday.

Harry: agreed. thinking Thurday

Jon: Marcy live blogging, at worst can do two way relay of questions.

Marcy: liveblogging at my site, last time I found otu I could highlight on twitte,r not able to do much on that. but if osmeone is following me on twitter to put tags in
HarryWaisbren: Jon: that totally makes sense.

Jim: would it be helpful to have someon else liveblogging at daily kos, also following feed

Jon: good point. turn twitter into relay btw everyone

Jim: someone at EFF, someone at Marcy's blog, at Daily Kos, everyone live blogging but people watchign the same twitter feed

Marcy: will be different in any case. Kevin will see certain stuff, I will see others, Daily Kos will get the best value out of comments
HarryWaisbren: Jim: I can do daily kos. Much of mine is considered valuable though but after the fact, so I may not be the best person

Jon: should look for osmeone to do something there
HarryWaisbren: Julian: can you call Markos and arrange to have you bumped?

marcy: he's not going to do that, especially not in the middle of ehalth care

Julian: worth asking

Marcy: he usually says if it rises it rises, if not **** it
HarryWaisbren: Jon: ok, reschedule fb event ot thursday. still try to get twitter going tomorrow. blog posts coming form jessica on issues, Julian on NSL stuff, Harry on short call to action linking off to Julians and/or jessicas depneding on order everything goes up. Jim and Patrick to work on template to make it easy for other bloggers, TBD probably Harry along with Patrick etc to be coordinating relaying for during hte hearing on Thursday so we know who is following Marcy, Kevin, Julian, etc.
HarryWaisbren: Patrick: once I have dteails straight in my head, I can go ahead and update on facebook
HarryWaisbren: Julian: asks who is blogging at Kos? Jon: Jim Burrows.

Jon: Harry, can you write up summary for this?

Me: not a problem.

Jon: excellent call. Please look to RT tonight/tomorrow, really is numbers, few tweets forme veryone helps alot!
HarryWaisbren: Great call, take care everyone!

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